John de Hastings

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: 6 May 1262, Allesley, Warwickshire, England
• Alternate death: 20 Feb 1313, Abergavenny, Monmouthshire, Wales
• Alternate death: 5 Apr 1325
• Alternate death: 10 May 1325

Notes:

Hereditary Steward of the liberties of the Abbey of Bury St. Edmunds. Seneschal of Aquitaine. Lieutenant & Seneschal of Gascony. "[I]n 1292 claimed third part of Kingdom of Scotland as a gr. s. of Ada, 4th dau. & coh. of David, Earl of Huntingdon; claim rejected." [Ancestral Roots]

CP I:23, footnote (a): George de Cantelou's heirs to the honor of Abergavenny "were his sister Millicent, then of full age and wife of Eudes la Zouche, and his nephew John, the next owner of Abergavenny."

Summoned to Parliament by writs dated 24 Jun 1295 to 8 Jul 1312.

"Sir John de Hastinges, of Abergavenny, s. and h., b. 6 May 1262, at Allesley, co. Warwick. On 12 July 1283 the King took his homage, and he had livery of his father’s lands, and also of his purparty of the lands of George de Cantelou, namely, the castle and honour of Abergavenny, co. Monmouth, the castle of Kilgerran, co. Pembroke, of the lands of St. Clear, co. Carmarthen, Aston, co. Warwick, Barwick, Little Marston, and Stoford, Somerset, and Badmondisfield, Suffolk. In Jan. 1283/4 he was about to go to Scotland. He was on the King’s service in Wales in 1287. In 1292 he claimed a third part of the Kingdom of Scotland, as grandson and h. of Ada, 4th da. and coh. of David, Earl of Huntingdon: his claim was rejected by the judgment delivered at Berwick Castle, on Monday after St. Martin [17 Nov.]. In Jan. 1296/7 he was about to go to Brabant, by the King’s command, in attendance on Margaret, the King’s da., Duchess of Brabant. He was in the Army of Scotland in 1300, being at the siege of Caerlaverock in July the same year. On 2 Feb. 1300/1 he had licence to crenellate his manor and town of Fillongley, co. Warwick. He was sum. for Military Service from 26 June (1294) 22 Edw. I to 18 June (1310) 3 Edw. II to attend the Coronation, 18 Jan. (1307/8) I Edw. II, to a Council 8 Jan. (1308/9) 2 Edw. II, and to Parl. from 24 June (1295) 23 Edw. I to 8 July (1312) 6 Edw. II, by writs directed Johanni de Hastingges, and moreover is recorded to have been present in pleno parliamento domini Regi: on the morrow of Trinity 18 Edw. I [29 May 1290] with other magnates et proceres tunc in parliamento existentes, whereby he is held to have become Lord Hastinges. As Johannes de Hastinges Dominus de Bergeveni he took part in the Barons’ Letter to the Pope, 12 Feb. 1300/1. On 23 Aug. 1302 he was appointed Lieutenant and Seneschal of Gascony, during pleasure: he held the office till Aug. or Sep. 1104. On 22 May 1306 the King granted to him and his heirs the county of Menteith (except the land in that county which the King had previously granted to Edmund de Hastinges), forfeited by Alan, late Earl of Menteith, the King’s rebel and enemy. On 15 Mar. 1308/9 he had licence to grant, in fee, to John, his son, the manor of Aston Cantlow, the castle and town of Kilgerran, and other lands in Wales. He was re-appointed Lieutenant and Seneschal of Gascony, 24 Oct. 1309, during pleasure, and on 16 Nov. following had licence to set out from Dover with his household, horses, armour, silver vessels, &c.; he sur­rendered his office in the latter half of 1311. He m., firstly, at Braxted, Essex or Blunham, Beds, Isabel, da. of William (de Valnce), Earl of Pembroke, by Joan, da. of Sir Warin de Munchanesy, of Swanscombe, Kent, Winfarthing and Gooderstone, Norfolk, &c. She d. 5 Oct. 1305, and was bur. in Coventry Priory. He m., 2ndly, Isabel, da. of Hugh (le Despenser), Earl lf Winchester, by Isabel, da. of William (de Beauchamp), Earl of Warwick. He d. 10 Feb. 1312/3. His widow had livery of her dower, 11 Apr. 1313, and of the knights’ fees and advowsons of her dower, 20 Nov. following, all of which had been assigned to her by the King. She m., 2ndly, as 2nd wife, Sir Ralph de Mounthermer, sometime Earl of Gloucester: as royal licence had not been obtained for this marriage, on 20 Nov. 1318 and again on 2 Jan. following, the lands they held in dower were taken into the King’s hand. They were pardoned and their lands were restored to them, 12 Aug. 1319, for a fine of 1,000 marks: which also they were pardoned on 18 May 1321. She had charge of two of the King's daughters from Michaelmas 1324. Ralph d. 5 Apr. 1325, and was bur. in the Church of the Grey Friars at Salisbury, aged 63. Will pr. and enrolled, Monday before St. Margaret 1325, in the Court of Husting, London. She d. 4. or 5 Dec. 1334." [Complete Peerage VI:346-39]

John married Isabel de Valence after 15 Jul 1275. Isabel (daughter of William de Valence and Joan de Munchensy) died on 3 Oct 1305; was buried in Grey Friars, Coventry, Warwickshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. Elizabeth de Hastings

John married Isabel le Despenser before 1309. Isabel (daughter of Hugh le Despenser and Isabel de Beauchamp) died on 4 Dec 1334; was buried in Grey Friars, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. Hugh de Hastings was born about 1310 in of Sutton Scotney, Hampshire, England; died on 30 Jul 1347; was buried in Elsing, Norfolk, England.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1235, of Cavendish, Leicestershire, England
• Alternate death: Bef 4 Mar 1269
• Alternate death: Bef 5 Mar 1269

Notes:

Constable of Winchester Castle; hereditary Steward of the Abbey of Bury St. Edmunds. One of the leaders of the baronial army at Lewes. Wounded and taken prisoner at Evesham.

Summoned to Parliament by writ 24 Dec 1264.

"Sir Henry de Hastinges, of Ashill, Norfolk, s. and h. of Sir Henry de Hastinges, of the same (who d. shortly before 9 Aug. 1250), by Ada, 4th da. of David, Earl of Huntingdon. On 10 May 1256 the King took his homage, and he had livery of his father’s lands. He was one of the leaders of the baronial army at the battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264: he was knighted by Simon de Montfort before that battle. He was one of those prohibited, 16 Feb. 1264/5, from taking part in the tournament at Dunstaple, and ordered to attend a Council on the morrow of Ash Wednesday [19 Feb.] following. On 3 June 1265 he was appointed Constable of the castle at Winchester, during pleasure, in succession to Humphrey de Bohun. At the battle of Evesham, 4 Aug. 1265, he was wounded and taken prisoner. On 18 Jan. and 18 Feb. 1265/6, when he was still in prison, the King granted to his wife, Joan, for the maintenance ofher­self and her children, her husband’s lands in Blunham, Beds, Nailstone and Burbage, co. Leicester, Fillongley, co. Warwick, and elsewhere. With John de la Warre he defended Kenilworth Castle during the siege by the King, from 27 June till its surrender on the Feast of St. Lucy [13 Dec.] 1266. By the Dictum of Kenilworth his lands were sub­jected to the penalty of 7 years’ purchase. He was sum. for Military Service from 1 Aug. (1260) 44 Hen. III to 25 May (1263) 47 Hen. III, and to Parl. 24 Dec. (1264) 49 Hen. III, by writs directed Henrico de Hasting. He m. Joan, sister and coh. of Sir George de Cantelou, Lord of Abergavenny, and da. of Sir William de Cantelou, of Calne, Wilts, and Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick, by Eve, 3rd da. and coh. of Sir William de Braiose, Lord of Totnes, Brecknock and Abergavenny. He d. shortly before 5 Mar. 1268/9. His Widow d. before June 1271." [Complete Peerage VI:345-6]

"He was one of the most violent of the Barons in arms against Henry III and for his excesses upon the Church and Clergy was excommunicated by Archbishop Boniface of Canterbury." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz, citation details below.]

Henry married Joan de Cantelowe before 1262. Joan (daughter of William III de Cantelowe and Eve de Briouze) was born in of Abergavenny, Monmouthshire, Wales; died after 1269. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef Jun 1271

Notes:

CP I:23, calls her "sister and coh. of the last owner of Abergavenny [George de Cantelou]."

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1205, of Ashill, Norfolk, England

Notes:

Dapifer of Bury St. Edmunds. Taken prisoner at the battle of Sainte, 22 Jul 1242, and exchanged not long after.

Henry married Ada of Huntingdon after 1224. Ada (daughter of David of Scotland and Maud of Chester) died after 2 Nov 1241. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1247

William married Eve de Briouze before 1241. Eve (daughter of William de Briouze and Eve Marshal) died between 20 Jul 1255 and 28 Jul 1255. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 28 Jul 1255

Notes:

"Eve de Briouze, da. and coh., heiress of Abergavenny. She m., after 25 July 1238 (when his father, William de C., obtained her wardship and marriage together with the custody of Abergavenny and the other lands falling to her share), and before 15 Feb. 1247/8, William de Cantelou, of Calne, Wilts, and Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick. He d. at Calstone, Wilts, 25, and was bur. 30 Sep. 1254, at Studley Priory, co. Warwick. Writ of extent 15 Oct. 1254. She d. in 1255, about 20 and before 28 July." [Complete Peerage I:22-23]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Bef 1173, of Lidgate, Suffolk, England
• Alternate death: Bef 1226
• Alternate death: Abt 1226
• Alternate death: Bef 28 Jan 1226

Notes:

Steward of the royal household. Dapifer of Bury St. Edmunds. "He was present at Lincoln at the homage of William, King of Scots, 1200; fought in Poitou 1214; and attended the King at the siege of Bitham Castle 1221." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

William married Margaret le Bigod. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: 1144

Notes:

Earl of Huntingdon and Cambridge. Also called David of Huntingdon.

David married Maud of Chester on 26 Aug 1190. Maud (daughter of Hugh of Chester and Bertrade de Montfort) was born in 1171; died about 6 Jan 1233. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Matilda de Blondeville; Maud of Chester; Maud or Matilda de Meschines; Maud or Matilda de Kevelioc.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1185, of Eaton Bray, Bedfordshire, England

Notes:

Steward of the royal household to Henry III. "[N]amed by Roger of Wendover among the evil counsellors of King John of England, apparently for no better reason than that they were consistently loyal to an unpopular master." [Wikipedia]

William married Milicent de Gournay before Jul 1215. Milicent (daughter of Hugh de Gournay and Juliane de Dammartin) died before 1233. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1260

Notes:

Countess of Gloucester; Countess of Evreux.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: of Totnes, Devon, England
• Alternate death: Bef 1247

Notes:

"William de Briouze, s. and h. by 1st wife. He m. Eve, da. and in her issue coh. of William (Marshal), Earl of Strigul and Pembroke, by Isabel, suo jure Countess of Pembroke. He d. 1 May 1230, being hanged by Llewelyn abovenamed. His widow d. before 1246." [Complete Peerage I:22, as corrected in Volume XIV.]

Hanged by Llewelyn, Prince of Wales, after intrigues with Llewelyn's wife.

"He was discovered in Joan's chambers, accused of being her lover, and promptly and publicly hanged. While the story that William and Joan were lovers has been generally accepted, the Annals of Margam (in T. Gale, ed , Historiae Britannicae et Anglicanae Scriptores XX (Oxford, 1687), 2-18, [anno] MCCXXX) implies that the 'intimacy' was devised by Llywelyn to avenge himself on William for political injuries inflicted not only by William but by the entire Braose family; the execution was hailed by the Welsh as a vindication of a blood-feud against the Braoses dating from at least 1176. Indeed, shortly after the execution Llywelyn wrote to William's widow Eva and to William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, Eva's brother, stating, in effect, that so far as he was concerned, the intended marriage between Llywelyn's son Dafydd and Eva's daughter Isabella could go forward as planned, and that he could not have prevented the Welsh magnates from taking their vengeance. See J. Goronwy Edwards, Calendar of Ancient Correspondence concerning Wales (Board of Celtic Studies of the University of Wales, History and Law Series, 2)(Cardiff, 1935), pp 51-52, nos. XI.56a, 56b. The marriage in fact took place three months later." [William Addams Reitwiesner, "The Children of Joan, Princess of North Wales," The Genealogist 1:80, Spring 1980.]

William married Eve Marshal. Eve (daughter of William Marshal and Isabel de Clare) died between Jan 1242 and 1246. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1246
• Alternate death: Bef 1247

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1195

Notes:

Steward to Henry II. Dapifer of Bury St. Edmunds.

William married Maud Banastre. Maud (daughter of Thurstan Banastre) died before 1222. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Abt 1222

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: of Framlingham, Suffolk, England
• Alternate birth: Abt 1150

Notes:

Earl of Norfolk. Hereditary Steward of the Household; Privy Councillor; Keeper of Hertford Castle 1191; Judge in the King's Court 1195, 1196, 1199, 1202; Chief Judge in the King's Court 1197; Warden of Romford Forest 1200.

Magna Carta surety.

Edward Maunde Thompson, in the Dictionary of National Biography (1886):

BIGOD, ROGER (d. 1221), second Earl of Norfolk, was son of Hugh, first earl [q. v.] On the death of his father in 1176, he and his stepmother, Gundreda, appealed to the king on a dispute touching the inheritance, the countess pressing the claims of her own son. Henry thereupon seized the treasures of Earl Hugh into his own hands, and it seems that during the remainder of this reign Roger had small power, even if his succession was allowed. His position, however, was not entirely overlooked. He appears as a witness to Henry's award between the kings of Navarre and Castile on 16 March 1177, and in 1186 he did his feudal service as steward in the court held at Guildford.

On Richard's succession to the throne, 3 Sept. 1189, Bigod was taken into favour. By charter of 27 Nov. the new king confirmed him in all his honours, in the earldom of Norfolk, and in the stewardship of the royal household, as freely as Roger, his grandfather, and Hugh, his father, had held it. He was next appointed one of the ambassadors to Philip of France to arrange for the crusade, and during Richard's absence from England on that expedition he supported the king's authority against the designs of Prince John. On the pacification of the quarrel between the prince and the chancellor, William Longchamp, bishop of Ely, on 28 July 1191, Bigod was put into possession of the castle of Hereford, one of the strongholds surrendered by John, and was one of the chancellor's sureties in the agreement. In April 1193 he was summoned with certain other barons and prelates to attend the chancellor into Germany, where negotiations were being carried on to effect Richard's release from captivity; and in 1194, after the surrender of Nottingham to the king, he was present in that city at the great council held on 30 March. At Richard's re-coronation, 17 April, he assisted in bearing the canopy. In July or August of the same year he appears as one of the commissioners sent to York to settle a quarrel between the archbishop and the canons.

After Richard's return home, Bigod's name is found on the records as a justiciar, fines being levied before him in the fifth year of that king's reign, and from the seventh onwards. He also appears as a justice itinerant in Norfolk. After Richard's death, Bigod succeeded in gaining John's favour, and in the first years of his reign continued to act as a judge. In October 1200 he was one of the envoys sent to summon William of Scotland to do homage at Lincoln, and was a witness at the ceremony on 22 Nov. following; but at a later period he appears to have fallen into disgrace, and was imprisoned in 1213. In the course of the same year, however, he was released and apparently restored to favour, as he accompanied the king to Poitou in February 1214, and about the same time compounded by a fine of 2,000 marks for the service of 120 knights and all arrears off scutages. Next year he joined the confederate barons in the movement which resulted in the grant of Magna Charta on 15 June 1215, and was one of the twenty-five executors, or trustees, of its provisions. He was consequently included in the sentence of excommunication which Innocent III soon afterwards declared against the king's opponents, and his lands were cruelly harried by John's troops in their incursions into the eastern counties.

After the accession of Henry III, Bigod returned to his allegiance, and his hereditary right to the stewardship of the royal household was finally recognised at the council of Oxford on 1 May 1221. But before the following August he died. He was succeeded by his eldest son, Hugh, as third earl, who, however, survived him only four years.

Roger married Ida de Tony about 25 Dec 1181. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

From: Douglas Richardson
Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

[...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

From: Douglas Richardson
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

From: mississippienne@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

[...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1115

Notes:

Earl of Northumberland and of Huntingdon. Also called Eanric mac Dabid; Henry of Huntingdon.

"Henry, earl of Northumberland (c. 1115–1152), prince, was the only surviving adult son of David I (c. 1085–1153), king of Scots, and his queen, Maud (or Matilda) (d. 1131), widow of Simon (I) de Senlis. From c. 1128 his name was linked with his father's in governance, and in 1144 he appears as rex designatus ('king-designate'). Although the exact significance of this style is unclear, it seems certain that he had formally been proclaimed as future king; and in practice from the 1130s 'David's was a dual reign...with joint or at least coadjutorial royal government' (G. W. S. Barrow, ed., The charters of King David I: the written acts of David I king of Scots, 1124–53, and of his son Henry earl of Northumberland, 1139–52, 1999, p. 34). This partnership--though Henry was self-evidently the junior partner--had momentous consequences for the Scots monarchy's power and prestige. Henry shared fully in David's policies of modernization by which Scotland began to be transformed into a European-style kingdom, and above all he was inseparably associated with his father in furthering historic Scottish claims to 'northern England'. Leading vast armies against King Stephen, they made extensive gains at his expense." [Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]

Henry married Ada de Warenne after 9 Apr 1139. Ada (daughter of William II de Warenne and Isabel de Vermandois) died in 1178. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Or Adeline.

From the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography:

Her public role as first lady of the Scottish court (there was no queen of Scotland from 1131 to 1186) was originally limited by her numerous pregnancies; but her fecundity averted a catastrophe when Henry, the expected successor to the kingship, died prematurely in 1152. During her widowhood she enjoyed in full measure the respect and status to which she was entitled as mother of two successive Scots kings, Malcolm IV and William the Lion. After Malcolm's enthronement as a boy of twelve in 1153, she figured prominently in his counsels and was keenly aware of her responsibilities. According to the well-informed William of Newburgh, Malcolm's celibacy dismayed her, and she endeavoured, albeit fruitlessly, to sharpen his dynastic instincts by placing a beautiful maiden in his bed. She was less frequently at William the Lion's court from 1165, no doubt because of the periodic illnesses that obliged her to turn to St Cuthbert for a cure.

Ada's cosmopolitan tastes and connections reinforced the identification of Scottish élite society with European values and norms. Reginald of Durham regarded her piety as exemplary, and she played a notable role in the expansion of the reformed continental religious orders in Scotland. If she had a preference, it was for female monasticism, and by 1159 she had founded a priory for Cistercian nuns at Haddington, apparently at the instigation of Abbot Waldef of Melrose (d. 1159). Her household attracted Anglo-Norman adventurers, and she personally settled in Scotland knights from Northumberland and from the great Warenne honours in England and Normandy.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: 1147, Merionethshire, Wales

Notes:

Earl of Chester. Also known as Hugh le Meschin; Hugh de Meschines; Hugh of Kevelioc; Hugh de Cyveiliog.

1908 DNB entry on Hugh of Kevelioc:

[By Thomas Frederick Tout.]

HUGH (D. 1181) called HUGH of CYVEILIOG, palatine Earl of Chester, was the son of Ranulf II, Earl of Chester, and of his wife Matilda, daughter of Earl Robert of Gloucester, the illegitimate son of Henry I. He is sometimes called Hugh of Cyveiliog, because, according to a late writer, he was born in that district of Wales (Powel, Hist. of Cambria, p. 295). His father died on 16 Dec. 1153, whereupon, being probably still under age, he succeeded to his possessions on both sides of the Channel. These included the hereditary viscounties of Avranches and Bayeux. Hugh was present at the council of Clarendon in January 1164 which drew up the assize of Clarendon (Stubbs, Select Charters, p. 138). In 1171 he was in Normandy (Eyton, Itinerary of Henry II, p. 158).

Hugh joined the great feudal revolt against Henry II in 1173. Aided by Ralph of Fougeres, he utilised his great influence on the north-eastern marches of Brittany to excite the Bretons to revolt. Henry II despatched an army of Brabant mercenaries against them. The rebels were defeated in a battle, and on 20 Aug. were shut up in the castle of Dol, which they had captured by fraud not long before. On 23 Aug. Henry II arrived to conduct the siege in person (Hoveden, ii. 51). Hugh and his comrades had no provisions (Jordan Fantosme in Howlett, Chron. of Stephen, Henry II, and Richard I, iii. 221). They were therefore forced to surrender on 26 Aug. on a promise that their lives and limbs would be saved (W. Newburgh in Howlett, i. 176). Fourscore knights surrendered with them (Diceto, i. 378). Hugh was treated very leniently by Henry, and was confined at Falaise, whither the Earl and Countess of Leicester were also soon brought as prisoners. When Henry II returned to England, he took the two earls with him. They were conveyed from Barfleur to Southampton on 8 July 1174. Hugh was probably afterwards imprisoned at Devizes (Eyton, p. 180). On 8 Aug., however, he was taken back from Portsmouth to Barfleur, when Henry II went back to Normandy. He was now imprisoned at Caen, whence he was removed to Falaise. He was admitted to terms with Henry before the general peace, and witnessed the peace of Falaise on 11 Oct. (Fœdera, i. 31).

Hugh seems to have remained some time longer without complete restoration. At last, at the council of Northampton on 13 Jan. 1177, he received grant of the lands on both sides of the sea which he had held fifteen days before the war broke out (Benedictus, i. 135; Hoveden, ii. 118). In March he witnessed the Spanish award. In May, at the council at Windsor, Henry II restored him his castles, and required him to go to Ireland, along with William Fitzaldhelm and others, to prepare the way for the king's son John (Benedictus, i. 161). But no great grants of Irish land were conferred on him, and he took no prominent part, in the Irish campaigns. He died at Leek in Staffordshire on 30 June 1181 (ib. i. 277; Monasticon, iii. 218; Ormerod, Cheshire, i. 29). He was buried next his father on the south side of the chapter-house of St. Werburgh's, Chester, now the cathedral.

Hugh's liberality to the church was not so great as that of his predecessors. He granted some lands in Wirral to St. Werburgh's, and four charters of his, to Stanlaw, St. Mary's, Coventry, the nuns of Bullington and Greenfield, are printed by Ormerod (i. 27). He also confirmed his mother's grants to her foundation of Austin Canons at Calke, Derbyshire, and those of his father to his convent of the Benedictine nuns of St. Mary's, Chester (Monasticon, vi. 598, iv. 314). In 1171 he had confirmed the grants of Ranulf to the abbey of St. Stephen's in the diocese of Bayeux (Eyton, p. 158). More substantial were his grants of Bettesford Church to Trentham Priory, and of Combe in Gloucestershire to the abbey of Bordesley, Warwickshire (Monasticon, vi. 397, v. 407).

Hugh married before 1171 Bertrada, the daughter of Simon III, surnamed the Bald, count of Evreux and Montfort. He was therefore brother-in-law to Simon of Montfort., the conqueror of the Albigenses, and uncle of the Earl of Leicester. His only legitimate son, Ranulf III, succeeded him as Earl of Chester [see Blundevill, Randulf de]. He also left four daughters by his wife, who became, on their brother's death, co-heiresses of the Chester earldom. They were: (1) Maud, who married David, earl of Huntingdon, and became the mother of John the Scot, earl of Chester from 1232 to 1237, on whose death the line of Hugh of Avranches became extinct; (2) Mabel, who married William of Albini, earl of Arundel (d. 1221); (3) Agnes, the wife of William, earl Ferrers of Derby; and (4) Hawise, who married Robert de Quincy, son of Saer de Quincy, earl of Winchester. Hugh was also the father of several bastards, including Pagan, lord of Milton; Roger; Amice, who married Ralph Mainwaring, justice of Chester; and another daughter who married R. Bacon, the founder of Roucester (Ormerod, i. 28). A great controversy was carried on between Sir Peter Leycester and Sir Thomas Mainwaring, Amice's reputed descendant, as to whether that lady was legitimate or not. Fifteen pamphlets and small treatises on the subject, published between 1673 and 1679, were reprinted in the publications of the Chetham Society, vols. lxxiii. lxxix. and lxxx. Mainwaring was the champion of her legitimacy, which Leycester had denied in his 'Historical Antiquities.' Dugdale believed that Amice was the daughter of a former wife of Hugh, of whose existence, however, there is no record. A fine seal of Earl Hugh's is engraved in Ormerod's 'Cheshire,' i. 32.

[Benedictus Abbas and Roger de Hoveden (both ed. Stubbs in Rolls Ser.); Howlett's Chronicles of Stephen, Henry II, and Richard I (Rolls Ser.); Eyton's Itinerary of Hen. II; Ormerod's Cheshire, i. 26-32; Dugdale's Baronage, i. 40-1; Dugdale's Monasticon, ed. Ellis, Caley, and Bandinel; Doyle's Official Baronage, i. 364; Beamont's introduction to the Amicia Tracts, Chetham Soc.]

[DNB, Editor, Sidney Lee, Macmillan Co., London & Smith, Elder & Co., NY, 1908, vol. x, pp. 164-5]

Hugh married Bertrade de Montfort in 1169. Bertrade (daughter of Simon de Montfort and Maud) was born about 1155; died after 31 Mar 1227. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1156

Notes:

Also called Bertrade of Evreux. CP notes that at her wedding she was given away by King Henry II "because she was his own cousin." In fact she and the king were second cousins once removed, Simon de Montfort and Agnes d'Evreaux being his great-great grandparents and her great-grandparents.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Between 1170 and 1175, of Caln, Wiltshire, England

Notes:

Also spelled Cantelou; Cantilupe.

Count of Mortain. Sheriff of Worcestershire 1200-15; Sheriff of Warwickshire and Leicestershire 1201-4, 1209-23; itinerant Justice in Staffordshire 1203; Sheriff of Herefordshire 1204-5; Steward of the King's Household 1204-22; justice in Nottinghamshire 1208; itinerant justice in Bedfordshire 1218. Fought at the siege of Bitham Castle, 1221.

"He and William Briwerre supervised elections in the vacant sees of York and Carlisle in 1214. Wendover's description of him as one of John's 'evil counselors' probably owes much to his role as a gaoler of baronial hostages. Wendover also suggests that Cantelowe may have wavered in his loyalty after the rebel seizure of London in 1215, but this is belied by the stream of royal writs sent to him in 1215-16. In 1215 he also witnessed the royal declaration of free election to sees and abbeys. He took the side of the king in his war with the barons. In 1215-16 he was granted a number of manors belonging to rebels, and was commissioned to treat with those who might return to the king's peace." [Royal Ancestry]

"A Norman by birth." [Royal Ancestry]

William married Masceline de Bracy. Masceline (daughter of Adulf de Bracy) died after 1220. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Mazalia; Mazra; Brascy; Braci.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: of Bledlow, Buckinghamshire, England
• Alternate death: 1215

Notes:

Accompanied Richard I on the Third Crusade, 1191. Commanded 100 knights at Acre. Sheriff of Buckinghamshire and Bedfordshire, 1214. According to Royal Ancestry, he died in Rouen "after donning the garb of a Templar and discarding it by apostasy."

Hugh married Juliane de Dammartin before 1193. Juliane (daughter of Aubrey II de Dammartin and Mahaut of Clermont) died in 1238. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: of Kington, Herefordshire, England
• Alternate death: Between 5 May 1227 and 9 Jun 1228
• Alternate death: Bef 9 Jun 1228

Notes:

"Reynold de Briouze, next br. He had seizin of his father's lands 26 May 1216, but gave up Bramber in or after 1220 to his nephew John, s. and h. of his 1st br. William. He m., 1stly, Grecia, da. and in her issue coh. of William Brieguerre or Briwere, by Beatrice de Vaux. He m., 2ndly, 1215, Gwladus Du, da. of Llewelyn ap lorwerth. Prince of North Wales, by his 2nd wife, Joan, illegit. da. of King John. He d. between 5 May 1227 and 9 June 1228. His widow m., 2ndly, Ralph de Mortimer, of Wigmore, who d. 6 Aug. 1246, and was bur. at Wigmore Abbey. She d. at Windsor in 1251." [Complete Peerage I:22]

He attended the king at the siege of Bitham, 1221.

Reynold married Grace Briwerre. Grace (daughter of William de Briwerre and Beatrice de Vaux) died before 1215. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Grecia Briwere, Brieguerre.

Notes:

Also spelled William le Mareschal. Earl of Pembroke.

Hereditary Marshal of England; Sheriff of Gloucestershire 1189-94; Sheriff of Sussex 1193-1208; Warden of the Forest of Dean and Constable of St. briavels Castle 1194-1206; Constable of Lillebonne 1202; Protector and Regent of the Kingdom 1216-19; and, in right of his wife, Earl of Pembroke and Striguil and Lord of Leinster. Advisor to King John at Runnymede.

Wikipedia:

"William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke [...], also called William the Marshal (Norman French: Williame le Mareschal; Anglo-Norman: Guillaume le Marechal), was an English (or Anglo-Norman) soldier and statesman. Stephen Langton eulogized him as the 'best knight that ever lived.' He served four kings -- Henry II, Richard I, John, and Henry III -- and rose from obscurity to become a regent of England for the last of the four, and so one of the most powerful men in Europe. Before him, the hereditary title of 'Marshal' designated head of household security for the king of England; by the time he died, people throughout Europe (not just England) referred to him simply as 'the Marshal'. He received the title of 1st Earl of Pembroke through marriage during the second creation of the Pembroke earldom."

William married Isabel de Clare in Aug 1189 in London, England. Isabel (daughter of Richard "Strongbow" fitz Gilbert and Eve of Leinster) was born in 1173; died on 7 Mar 1220; was buried in Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Hugh married Erneberga de Flamville. Erneberga (daughter of Hugh de Flamville) was born in of Aston Flamville, Leicestershire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

She was the heir of her uncle Robert de Flamville, to whom the bishop of Coventry gave Aston in the hundred of Sparkenhoe, later known as Aston Flamville, for the service of two knight's fees, c. 1100. She was given in marriage to Hugh de Hastings by Henry I. She is known to have survived her husband, but specific dates are unknown.

Notes:

Earl of Norfolk. Died on pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

Edward Maunde Thompson, in the Dictionary of National Biography (1886):

At the time of his father's death, whom he survived some seventy years, Hugh must have been quite a young child. Little is heard of him at first, no doubt on account of his youth, but he appears as king's dapifer in 1123, and before that date he was constable of Norwich Castle and governor of the city down to 1122, when it obtained a charter from the crown. Passing the best years of his manhood in the distractions of the civil wars of Stephen and Matilda, when men's oaths of fealty sat lightly on their consciences, he appears to have surpassed his fellows in acts of desertion and treachery, and to have been never more in his element than when in rebellion. His first prominent action in history was on the death of Henry I in 1135, when he is said to have hastened to England, and to have sworn to Archbishop William Corbois that the dying king, on some quarrel with his daughter Matilda, had disinherited her, and named Stephen of Blois his successor. Stephen's prompt arrival in England settled the matter, and the wavering prelate placed the crown on his head. Hugh's reward was the earldom of Norfolk. The new king's energy at first kept his followers together, but before Whitsuntide in the next year Stephen was stricken with sickness, a lethargy fastened on him, and the report of his death was quickly spread abroad. A rising of turbulent barons necessarily followed, and Bigod was the first to take up arms. He seized and held Norwich; but Stephen, quickly recovering, laid siege to the city, and Hugh was compelled to surrender. Acting with unusual clemency, Stephen spared the traitor, who for a short time remained faithful. But in 1140 he is said to have declared for the empress, and to have stood a siege in his castle of Bungay; yet in the next year he is in the ranks of Stephen's army which fought the disastrous battle of Lincoln. In the few years which followed, while the war dragged on, and Stephen's time was fully occupied in subduing the so-called adherents of the empress, who were really fighting for their own hand, the Earl of Norfolk probably remained within his own domains, consolidating his power, and fortifying his castles, although in 1143-4 he is reported to have been concerned in the rising of Geoffrey de Mandeville. The quarrel between the king and Archbishop Theobald in 1148 gave the next occasion for Hugh to come forward; he this time sided with the archbishop, and received him in his castle of Framlingham, but joined with others in effecting a reconciliation. Five years later, in 1153, when Henry of Anjou landed to assert his claim to the throne, Bigod threw in his lot with the rising power, and held out in Ipswich against Stephen's forces, while Henry, on the other side, laid siege to Stamford. Both places fell, but in the critical state of his fortunes Stephen was in no position to punish the rebel. Negotiations were also going on between the two parties, and Hugh again escaped.

On Henry's accession in December 1154, Bigod at once received a confirmation of his earldom and stewardship by charter issued apparently in January of the next year. The first years of the new reign were spent in restoring order to the shattered kingdom, and in breaking the power of the independent barons. It was scarcely to be expected that Hugh should rest quiet. He showed signs of resistance, but was at once put down. In 1157 Henry marched into the eastern counties and received the earl's submission. After this Hugh appears but little in the chronicles for some time; only in 1169 he is named among those who had been excommunicated by Becket. This, however, was in consequence of his retention of lands belonging to the monastery of Pentney in Norfolk. In 1173 the revolt of the young crowned prince Henry against his father, and the league of the English barons with the kings of France and Scotland in his favour, gave the Earl of Norfolk another opportunity for rebellion. He at once became a moving spirit in the cause, eager to revive the feudal power which Henry had curtailed. The honour of Eye and the custody of Norwich Castle were promised by the young prince as his reward. But the king's energy and good fortune were equal to the occasion. While he held in check his rebel vassals in France, the loyal barons in England defeated his enemies here. Robert de Beaumont, earl of Leicester (d. 1190), landing at Walton, in Suffolk, on 29 Sept. 1173, had marched to Framlingham and joined forces with Hugh. Together they besieged and took, 13 Oct., the castle of Hagenet in Suffolk, held by Randal de Broc for the crown. But Leicester, setting out from Framlingham, was defeated and taken prisoner at Fornham St. Geneviève, near Bury, by the justiciar, Richard de Lucy, and other barons, who then turned their arms against Earl Hugh. Not strong enough to fight, he opened negotiations with his assailants, and, it is said, bought them off, at the same time securing for the Flemings in his service a safe passage home. In the next year, however, he was again in the field, with the aid of the troops of Philip of Flanders, and laid siege to Norwich, which he took by assault and burned. But Henry returned to England in the summer, and straightway marched into the eastern counties; and when Hugh heard that the king had already destroyed his castle of Walton, and was approaching Framlingham, he hastened to make his submission at Laleham on 25 July, surrendering his castles, which were afterwards dismantled, and paying a fine. After these events Hugh Bigod ceases to appear in history. His death is briefly recorded under the year 1177, and is generally mentioned as occurring in the Holy Land, whither he had accompanied Philip of Flanders on a pilgrimage. It is to be observed, however, that on 1 March of that year his son Roger appealed to the king on a dispute with his stepmother, Hugh being then dead, and that the date of his death is fixed 'ante caput jejunii,' i.e. before 9 March. If then, he died in Palestine, his death must have taken place in the preceding year, 1176, to allow time for the arrival of the news in England. Henry took advantage of Roger's appeal to seize upon the late earl's treasure. Besides the vast estates which he inherited, Hugh Bigod was in receipt of the third penny levied in the county of Norfolk.

[PNH: To that last point, note that the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says that "Hugh Bigod retained his earldom and Bungay Castle, as well as the four royal manors first granted to him in 1153, but he may have lost the right to collect the earl's third penny."]

Hugh married Juliana de Vere. Juliana (daughter of Aubrey de Vere and Alice de Clare) died after 1185. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1199

Notes:

Also called Ralph de Conches.

Ralph married Margaret of Leicester after 1155. Margaret (daughter of Robert of Meulan and Amice de Gael) was born about 1125; died after 1185. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Margaret de Beaumont.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1085

Notes:

"David I was driven by a clear and consistent vision, pious and authoritarian, of what his kingdom should be: Catholic, in the sense of conforming to the doctrines and observances of the western church; feudal, in the sense that a lord–vassal relationship, involving knight-service, should form the basis of government; and open, in the sense that external (especially continental) influences of all kinds, religious, military, and economic, were encouraged and exploited to strengthen the Scottish kingdom. Alongside his eclecticism, David's strong sense of the autonomy of his realm and of his own position within it must be acknowledged. The surviving numbers of his charters, compared with those of his predecessors, surely point to an increase in the sophistication, and probably also in the activity, of government. During David's reign the administration of royal justice became more firmly established and was organized more effectively. Those who enjoyed their own courts were told that the king would intervene if they failed to provide justice. The addresses of royal charters and writs (Scottish ‘brieves’) show that from c.1140 justiciars were appointed. Although none is known by name, these officers were clearly the predecessors of the named justiciars of succeeding reigns." [Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]

David married Maud of Northumberland before Jul 1113. Maud (daughter of Waltheof and Judith of Lens) was born about 1072; died between 1130 and 1131; was buried in Scone, Perthshire, Scotland. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1130
• Alternate death: 1131
• Alternate death: Bef 1132

Notes:

Also called Maud of Huntingdon.

Notes:

Earl of Surrey; usually styled Earl of Warenne. Advisor to King John at Runnymede.

William married Isabel de Vermandois after 5 Jun 1118. Isabel (daughter of Hugues le Grand and Adèle de Vermandois) died before Jun 1147. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef Jul 1147

Notes:

Countess of Leicester. Also called Elizabeth de Vermandois.

Royal Ancestry says she was living c. 1138 and that she died "13 (or 17) February, sometime before June 1147, when her son, William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey, left on crusade." Several sources say she died in the priory of Lewes, Sussex.

Via her two husbands and thirteen children, descent from her is so common among modern people with traceable medieval ancestry that Douglas Richardson once jokingly asserted the existence of an exclusive lineage organization called the Society of Non-Descendants of Isabel de Vermandois. Of the 19 root people in this database with demonstrable descent from any monarch, only three would be eligible for membership in such a group.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1100
• Alternate birth: Abt 1105, Guernon Castle, Normandy, France
• Alternate death: 17 Dec 1153, Gresley, Derbyshire, England

Notes:

Also called Ranulf of Chester. Earl of Chester. Vicomte d'Avranches.

Of his death, Complete Peerage says "being supposed to have been poisoned by his wife and William Peverell, of Nottingham", but the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, while noting the claims that he died of poison, says nothing about his wife being involved.

"Most contemporary verdicts upon Ranulf were unfavourable. Although Orderic Vitalis acknowledged his resourcefulness and daring, the Gesta Stephani criticized ‘the cunning devices of his accustomed bad faith’ (Gesta Stephani, 192–3), and Henry of Huntingdon, through a speech supposedly by the royalist spokesman at the battle of Lincoln, called him ‘a man of reckless daring, ready for conspiracy...panting for the impossible’, prone to defeat or, at best, to Pyrrhic victories (Historia Anglorum, 734–5). Clearly, his strategy during the civil war was to take every opportunity to enhance his territorial position, especially in the north midlands, and such commitments as he made, either to the king or to the Angevins, were calculated to that end. Other magnates followed similar policies, but Ranulf (II) was exceptionally ruthless in pursuit of his ambitions, and accordingly he was hated by many and trusted by none." [Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]

Ranulph married Matilda of Gloucester before 1135. Matilda (daughter of Robert of Gloucester and Mabel fitz Robert) died on 29 Jul 1189. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Maud fitz Robert; Maud de Caen.

"Matilda may have played a central role in the capture of Lincoln Castle in December 1140, a key turning point in the conflict that set in train the series of events that led eventually to the capture of Stephen. While their husbands were besieging Lincoln Castle, Matilda and her sister-in-law Hawise, countess of Lincoln, made a friendly social visit to the wife of the castellan. Under the pretext of providing an escort for his wife's safe return to his armed camp, Earl Ranulf penetrated and captured the castle. On the subsequent approach of the king's army towards Lincoln, it is unclear whether Matilda held the castle while Ranulf attempted to rally support or whether she was captured. None the less Ranulf escaped from the castle leaving his wife and sons to face the besieging royalists. Robert, earl of Gloucester, went to the aid of Ranulf since he was worried about the safety of his daughter and grandchildren. In the subsequent battle of Lincoln on 2 February 1141 King Stephen was captured." [Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]

It's worth noting that, at least as of 12 Mar 2017, the ODNB's entry on this Matilda begins with an extremely confused opening sentence that appears to be claiming that she was a daughter of Robert, illegitimate son of Henry I, by his wife Sibyl de Montgomery. In fact Sibyl was Robert's mother-in-law.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Between 1180 and 1181

Notes:

Count of Evreux.

Simon married Maud. Maud died before 1168. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Walter married Amice. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

One of the leaders of the attempt, in 1118, to place William Clito on the throne. After Henry I crushed the revolt, High de Gournay was among those pardoned. In 1147-49 he accompanied King Louis VII of France on a short-lived crusade to the Holy Land.

During the revolt of the Young King, this Hugh de Gournay was captured by the rebels along with his son Hugh.

Hugh married Millicent de Coucy before 1162. Millicent (daughter of Thomas de Marle and Mélisende de Crecy) died after 1181. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Or Melisende.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 20 Sep 1200

Notes:

Count of Dammartin-en-Goële. Chamberlain of France 1155-1160.

Also called Alberic II; Albri de Luzarches.

Aubrey married Mahaut of Clermont. Mahaut (daughter of Renaud II de Clermont and Clemence de Bar-le-Duc) died in Oct 1200. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft Sep 1200
• Alternate death: Aft 1218

Notes:

Also Mathilda; Mathilde; Marie; Maud; Mabile.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: of Bramber, Sussex, England
• Alternate death: Sep 1211, Corbeil, near Paris, France

Notes:

"William was the most notable member of the de Braose dynasty. His steady rise and sudden fall at the hands of King John is often taken as an example of that king's arbitrary and capricious behaviour towards his barons." [Wikipedia]

"William de Briouze, Lord of Briouze, Bramber, Brecon, Over Gwent, &c., s. and h. He m. Maud De St. Valery, "Lady of La Haie." In consequence of his well-known quarrel with King John, his lands were forfeited in 1208, and his wife and 1st s. starved to death in the dungeons of Corfe (or of Windsor) in 1210. He d. at Corbeil near Paris, 9, and was bur. 10 Aug. 1211, in the Abbey of St. Victor at Paris." [Complete Peerage I:22]

"He slaughtered Seisyll ap Dyvnwal (abovenamed) and a host of unarmed Welshmen, in the castle of Abergavenny in 1175, in revenge for the death of his uncle Henry of Hereford [Brut y Tywysogian, R. de Diceto, etc.). Seisyll was owner of Castle Arnold, and is said in an inaccurate version of the Brut to have captured Abergavenny in 1172, the slaughter being dated 1177 (The Gwentian Chronicle, Cambrian Arch. Assoc, p. 137). But the better version of the Brut (Rolls Ser., p. 218; Y Brutieu, in Welsh Texts, ed. Rhys and Evans, 1890, p. 330) on the contrary, states that Seisyll was captured in 1172 by the garrison of Abergavenny. (ex inform. G. W. Watson.)" [Complete Peerage I:22, footnote (a).]

William married Maud de St. Valéry. Maud (daughter of Bernard de St. Valéry and Matilda) was born about 1150; died in 1210 in Windsor, Berkshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1210, Corfe Castle, Dorset, England

Notes:

Also called Maud de Braose; Moll Wallbee; Lady of La Haie.

From Wikipedia:

"In 1208, William de Braose quarrelled with his friend and patron King John. The reason is not known but it is alleged that Maud made indiscreet comments regarding the murder of King John's nephew Arthur of Brittany. There was also a large sum of money (five thousand marks) de Braose owed the King. Whatever the reason, John demanded Maud's son William be sent to him as a hostage for her husband's loyalty. Maud refused, and stated loudly within earshot of the King's officers that 'she would not deliver her children to a king who had murdered his own nephew.' The King quickly led troops to the Welsh border and seized all of the castles that belonged to William de Braose. Maud and her eldest son William fled to Ireland, where they found refuge at Trim Castle with the de Lacys, the family of her daughter Margaret. In 1210, King John sent an expedition to Ireland. Maud and her son escaped but were apprehended in Galloway by Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick. After being briefly held at Carrickfergus Castle, they were dispatched to England.

"Maud and her son William were first imprisoned at Windsor Castle, but were shortly afterwards transferred to Corfe Castle in Dorset where they were placed inside the dungeon. Maud and William both starved to death. [...]

"Maud de Braose features in many Welsh legends. There is one which says that Maud built the castle of Hay-on-Wye single-handed in one night, carrying the stones in her apron. She was also said to have been extremely tall and often donned armour while leading troops into battle."

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1145, of King's Somborne, Ashley, Hampshire, England

Notes:

Also called Briwere, Briguerre. Justice of the King's Bench for both kings Richard I and John. Sheriff of Devon, 1179-89, 1200; of Berkshire 1190-94; of Oxfordshire 1190-4, 1201-2; of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, 1194-1200, 1203-4; of Hampshire 1199-1201, 1207-9, 1212, 1214-15; of Cornwall 1202-4; of Somerset and Dorset 1207-9; of Wiltshire 1207-9; of Sussex 1208-9; of Gloucestershire 1220. Hereditary forester of Bere Ashley Forest.

"In 1223 he opposed the confirmation of the Magna Carta and the charter of the forest, declaring that they were 'extorted by violence.'" [Royal Ancestry]

"When King Richard left England in 1189, he appointed Briwere to be one of the four justices to whom he committed the charge of the kingdom. Called one of King John's evil counselors who care for nothing but to please their master. One of the favorite counsellors of Henry III." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

Buried in the habit of a Cistercian monk before the high altar in Dunkeswell Abbey, Devon.

William married Beatrice de Vaux. Beatrice (daughter of Hubert de Vaux and Grace) was born about 1149; died on 24 Mar 1217; was buried in Mottisfont Priory, Hampshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Bef 1156

Notes:

Also called Beatrice de Valle, Beatrice de Vallibus. Former mistress of Reynold Fitz Roy, earl of Cornwall (d. 1 Jul 1175), but The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz says that she "may have been identical to his wife."

Notes:

Also called John the Marshal.

Wikipedia:

"John FitzGilbert the Marshal of the Horses [...] was a minor Anglo-Norman nobleman during the reign of King Stephen, and fought in the 12th century civil war on the side of Empress Matilda. Since at least 1130 and probably earlier, he had been the royal marshal to King Henry I. When Henry died, John FitzGilbert swore for Stephen and was granted the castles of Marlborough and Ludgershall, Wiltshire during this time. Along with Hamstead Marshal, this gave him control of the valley of the River Kennet in Wiltshire. Around 1139, John changed sides and swore for the Empress Matilda. In September 1141, Matilda fled the siege of Winchester and took refuge in the Marshal's castle at Ludgershall. While covering her retreat from Winchester, John Marshal was forced to take refuge at Wherwell Abbey. The attackers set fire to the building, and John lost an eye to dripping lead from the melting roof.

"In 1152, John had a celebrated confrontation with King Stephen, who had besieged him at Newbury Castle. After John had broken an agreement to surrender, Stephen threatened to kill his son, whom John had given as a hostage. John refused, saying he could make more sons, but Stephen apparently took pity on the young boy and did not kill him. The boy grew up to be William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke, a legendary figure in medieval lore, and one of the most powerful men in England."

John married Sybil de Salisbury. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Sibel d'Evreux.

Died on a 3 June, year unknown.

Notes:

Earl of Pembroke. Earl of Striguil. Justiciar of Ireland.

Also called Richard de Clare.

"Like his father, he was also commonly known by his nickname Strongbow (Norman French: Arc-Fort). He was an English lord notable for his leading role in the Norman invasion of Ireland. [...] Strongbow was the statesman, whereas Raymond was the soldier, of the conquest. He is vividly described by Giraldus Cambrensis as a tall and fair man, of pleasing appearance, modest in his bearing, delicate in features, of a low voice, but sage in council and the idol of his soldiers." [Wikipedia]

Richard married Eve of Leinster about 26 Aug 1170 in Waterford, Munster, Ireland. Eve (daughter of Diarmait mac Murchada, King of Leinster and Mor ni Tuathail) was born about 1145; died after 1185; was buried in Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft 1187

Notes:

Also called Aoife ni Darmait; Aoife MacMurrough; Red Eva.

From Wikipedia:

"On the 29 August 1170, following the Norman invasion of Ireland that her father had requested, she married Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke, better known as Strongbow, the leader of the Norman invasion force, in Reginald's Tower in Waterford. She had been promised to Strongbow by her father who had visited England to ask for an invasion army. He was not allowed to give his daughter away, as under Early Irish Law Aoife had the choice of whom she married, but she had to agree to an arranged marriage, that is, to select from a list of suitable suitors.

"Under Anglo-Norman law, this gave Strongbow succession rights to the Kingdom of Leinster. Under Irish Brehon law, the marriage gave her a life interest only, after which any land would normally revert to male cousins; but Brehon law also recognised a transfer of 'swordland' following a conquest. Aoife conducted battles on behalf of her husband and is sometimes known as Red Eva (Irish: Aoife Rua)."