Robert Fitz Walter

Family/Spouse: Joan de Multon. Joan (daughter of Thomas de Multon and Eleanor de Burgh) died on 16 Jun 1363; was buried in Dunmow Priory, Little Dunmow, Essex, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. John Fitz Walter was born about 1315; died on 18 Oct 1361; was buried in Dunmow Priory, Little Dunmow, Essex, England.

Notes:

Summoned to Parliament 24 Jun 1295 to 10 Oct 1325. Fought at the battle of Falkirk, and present at the siege of Caervaverock.

Robert married Eleanor de Ferrers before 11 Mar 1290 in King's Chapel, Westminster, Middlesex, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Walter married Ida Longespée. Ida (daughter of William I Longespée and Ela of Salisbury) died after 1261. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft 11 May 1262

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 27 Apr 1279
• Alternate death: Bef 20 Nov 1279

Notes:

Earl of Derby. "He joined the Barons opposing Henry III. On 19 Feb 1263, he captured Worcester, pillaged the city and destroyed the Jewish population. He was captured and imprisoned in the Tower of London from Jan 1265 to the spring of 1266. When released, he gathered an army, but was defeated at Chesterfield, 15 May 1266, and again imprisoned, in Wallingford Castle, where he remained until about June 1269. Having lost nearly all of his estates and suffering from gout, he retired from public life." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz, citation details below.]

Robert married Eleanor de Bohun on 26 Jun 1269. Eleanor (daughter of Humphrey de Bohun and Eleanor de Briouze) died on 20 Feb 1314; was buried in Walden Abbey, Essex, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Leader of the Magna Carta sureties. From the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography:

"Fitzwalter, Robert (d. 1235), magnate and rebel, lord of Dunmow, Essex and Baynard's Castle, London, was the son of Walter fitz Robert and Matilda, daughter of Henry II's justiciar Richard de Lucy. Henry I had granted the honours of Dunmow and Baynard's Castle to Walter's father, Robert, the king's steward, a younger son of Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare. The date of Fitzwalter's birth is unknown, as are the circumstances of his upbringing, though he may be the Robert Fitzwalter mentioned in the Histoire de Guillaume le Maréchal as fighting in the Young King's retinue of over 200 knights at the great tournament at Lagny-sur-Marne in 1180.

"[...]

"The families of Quincy and Fitzwalter had long been linked, for Robert's father, Walter, and Saer (d. 1190) were half-brothers, the latter's father, also Saer, having married Maud de Senlis, the widow of Robert fitz Richard (d. 1134), and the Quincys held a fief of 1 1/2 fees from the barony of Dunmow. In a noted demonstration of alliance Fitzwalter and Quincy each bore the other's arms on their seals.

"[...]

"Fitzwalter's close involvement with the rebellion of 1215–17 and with Magna Carta has ensured his prominence, but historians have been sharply divided in their assessment of him. To Tout, Fitzwalter was 'the first champion of English liberty' (DNB), and prefigured Simon de Montfort. Others, like Norgate and Painter, reacting against this naive idealism, dismissed him as a haughty, selfish, but ultimately cowardly, feudal grandee, ready to obstruct justice by private warfare and to cloak treason with a series of makeshift justifications. Yet, given John's harsh and arbitrary rule, the king's opponents had little option save for conspiracy or armed rebellion, particularly after 1213 when Innocent III fully supported John. To see Fitzwalter falling short of the qualities of a great constitutional statesman is to be as anachronistic as Tout. He may have fought in large part to avenge personal wrongs and to regain lost rights, but he played an important role in sustaining the resistance which resulted in Magna Carta. Although Fitzwalter was resolute in his opposition to John, his participation on crusade and his conduct during Henry III's minority belie the image of a turbulent malcontent. Matthew Paris had little cause to praise Fitzwalter, but the final verdict is best left to him. He 'could match any earl in England; valiant in arms, spirited and illustrious, endowed with many possessions, generous, encompassed by a multitude of powerful blood relatives and strengthened by numerous relatives in marriage' (Gesta abbatum, 1.220–21)."

Robert married Rohese. Rohese died in 1256 in Woodham Walter, Essex, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Or Rose.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1175
• Alternate birth: Between 1175 and 1180
• Alternate birth: Abt 1176
• Alternate death: 7 Mar 1226, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England

Notes:

Earl of Salisbury. Among the advisors to King John at Runnymede.

Lieutenant of Gascony 1202; Seneschal of Avranches 1203; Constable of Dover Castle and Warden of the Cinque Ports 1204-6; Sheriff of Wiltshire 1204-7, 1213-26; Lord of the Honour and Castle of Eye 1205; Cheriff of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire 1212-21; Sheriff of Shropshire and Staffordshire 1223-4; Constable of Portchester, Southampton, and Winchester Castle 1224; Keeper of the March of Wales.

Yes, there really were two Ida de Longespees, and they were sisters. SGM post:

From: Douglas Richardson Subject: Parentage of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:51:45 -0700 (PDT)

There has been discussion in the past on the newsgroup regarding the placement of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, in the Longespée family tree. Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 472 (sub FitzWalter) identifies Ida as "daughter of William (Longespée), Earl of Salisbury." The William Longespée intended here is presumably William Longespée I who died in 1226, not his son, William II, who died in 1250. If so, this would give Earl William Longespée I and his wife, Ela, two adult daughters named Ida, one of whom married Walter Fitz Robert, and the other who married William de Beauchamp. Curiously Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 381-382 footnote k (sub Salisbury) confuses Walter Fitz Robert's wife Ida with her sister of the same name who married William de Beauchamp; it also misidentifies Walter Fitz Robert's parentage.

The identification of Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, as a Longespée has traditionally rested on a pedigree of the Longespée family found in Lacock Priory cartulary. This pedigree lists the various children of William Longespée I, Earl of Salisbury, and his wife, Ela of Salisbury, including:

"Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem Walterus fil. Roberti, de qua genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quæ velatæ erant apud Lacok; Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de qua genuit Robertum") [Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501].

It is not known exactly why Ida Longespée is here styled Ida de Camyle in this record. I've assumed, however, that Ida may have had a brief Camville marriage previous to her known marriage to Walter Fitz Robert. If so, a previous Camvillle marriage would explain her use of the Camville surname as a grown adult. Ida's older brother, William Longespée II, is known, for example, to have married a member of the Camville family.

There are two contemporary records which prove that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was in fact a Longespée. The first record comes from List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer, which source contains an abstract of a letter dated 1261-1263 from Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, written to Walter de Merton, the king's chancellor, in which Ida specifically styles herself Ida Longespée:

"152. Ida Longespée, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, to the same [Walter de Merton, Chancellor]: to bail two of her men appealed of homicide. [1261-1263]." [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer (PRO Lists and Indexes 15) (1902): 107-108].

Elsewhere I find that Calendar of Liberate Rolls 5 (1961): 93 likewise refers to Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, as "Ida Lungespee:"

Date: 11 May 1162 -- "Liberate to Geoffrey de Lezinan, the king's brother, 40l. in recompense of a like sum received there of the issues of the manor of Henham [Essex] by the hands of Ida Lungespee." END OF QUOTE.

To date to my knowledge no one has discovered Ida Longespée's maritagium, although she certainly had one in marriage. Recently I encountered a record which evidently concerns her maritagium. The record in question is a Wiltshire pleading which dates from 1249:

"Walter son of Robert and Ida his wife, by Ida's attorney by writ of the present king, who brought an assize of novel disseisin against William Lungepeie for holdings in Scepperingge and Heniton, Farlegh' and Bidinham, have come and withdrawn by licence. It is agreed between them that Walter and Ida had put themselves utterly in William's grace for those holdings." [Reference: Clanchy, Civil Pleas of the Wiltshire Eyre 1249 (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 26) (1971): 152].

The lands involved in this lawsuit can be identified as Sheepbridge (in Swallowfield), Hinton (in Hurst), Farley [Hill] (in Swallowfield), and Diddenham (in Shinfield), all in modern Berkshire but formerly in Wiltshire. These lands were apparently held by William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela.

VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 267-274 states that Sheepbridge "belonged with Hinton in 1236 to Ela, Countess of Salisbury." Countess Ela named here was the widow of William Longespée I. VCH's statement regarding Countess Ela's holding of these lands is based on a charter found in Calendar of Charter Rolls 1226 - 57, page 221, whereby the king confirmed a grant of Countess Ela of various lands to Lacock Abbey, in exchange for "10 l. yearly receivable ...... .of the manors of Shiperige and Henton, and the advowson of the church of Winterburn Shyreveton."

The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1dELAQA AIAAJ&pg=PP1&dq=Calendar+Charter+Rolls+1226&hl=en&ei=M-U4TrbTFYvXiALj163DDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=r esult&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Calendar%20Charter%20Rolls%201226&f=false

Countess Ela's charter is undated but surely must date from around 1236. My files notes show the following information:

"In Feb. 1236 her son and heir, William Longespée, guaranteed her gifts to Lacock Abbey, while she agreed to surrender all her lands, rents and rights to him on 1 Nov. following. On 25 Oct. 1236 Ela, Countess of Salisbury, reached agreement with William Longespée, her first born son, that she may grant a moiety of the manor of Heddington, Wiltshire to Lacock Priory, which property fell to her on the death of Maud de Mandeville, Countess of Essex and Hereford. In the winter 1236 - 7 she resigned her custody of the county of Wiltshire. She subsequently entered her religious foundation at Lacock, where she took the veil before spring 1238." END OF QUOTE FROM MY FILE NOTES.

Following Countess Ela's surrender of her lands to her son, William Longespée II, he in turn granted the four properties in question, namely Sheepbridge, Hinton, Farley, and Diddenham, to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. The date of this grant is sometime before 1239-40.

In that year Sir Henry de la Mare was involved in a legal action concerning these four properties. A reference to this lawsuit may be found in Maitland, Bracton's Note Book 3 (1887): 286 - 287. This may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=DtcQAAA AYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:LtFTiI1NIsEC&hl=en&ei=nmw5TsSXK42IsAKv3OEg&sa=X&oi=book_result &ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

So the question arises: When did Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida Longespée, acquire their interest in the four properties? The answer to that question is not exact but surely it must have dated from the time that Countess Ela of Salisbury was holding these properties and before 1 Nov. 1236 when Countess Ela surrendered all her lands, rents, and rights to her son, William Longespée II. Walter and Ida can't have acquired their interest from William Longespée II, as once his mother released her lands to him, he almost immediately conveyed these four properties to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. One of these properties, Hinton, subsequently descended to Sir Henry de la Mare's daughter and heiress, Maud, wife of Peter de Montfort, and thence to her descendants [see VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 247 - 260].

So besides knowing that Walter Fitz Robert and Ida Longespée obtained their interest in the properties before 1236, what else can we know? More specifically, why would Ida claim these lands, if her brother had granted them to his seneschal?

The answer to this question is not clear but a reasonable guess would be that these four properties were put up as Ida's maritagium when she was contracted to marry a Camville and that when the contracted Camville marriage failed to materialize or produced no issue, by the terms of the marriage contract, the lands returned to Ida's family. At that point, Ida's claim to the lands was essentially voided. This in turn would explain why Ida's brother, William Longespée II, felt free to grant these lands elsewhere to Sir Henry de la Mare.

In summary, adequate evidence has been located which indicates that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was a Longespée. In 1249 Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida, sued William Longespée II regarding four properties then in Wiltshire, but now in Berkshire. The four properties in question were apparently part of the inheritance of Ida's mother, Countess Ela, who appears to have controlled the lands until 1236, when she released her lands to her son, William Longespée II. Ida's rights must predate 1236, as William Longespée II almost immediately conveyed these properties before 1239-40 to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. Thus William Longespée II can not have offered them as Ida's maritagium. This in turn implies that Ida Longespée was the daughter of William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela, and not William Longespée II.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert:

Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Symon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stratton, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, John West, Thomas Yale.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

William married Ela of Salisbury before Sep 1197. Ela (daughter of William fitz Patrick and Eleanor de Vitré) was born about 1191 in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England; died on 24 Aug 1261 in Lacock, Wiltshire, England; was buried in 1261 in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Ela fitz William. Founded the abbey at Laycock, 1238; abbess, 1240-57. Buried "in the convent choir beneath the altar." [Royal Ancestry]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 28 Mar 1254, Evington, Leicestershire, England

Notes:

Earl of Derby. Constable of Bolsover Castle. He died of injuries sustained when he was thrown from a chariot crossing a bridge at St. Neots in Cambridgeshire.

-----

So to start with, Sir William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby, born 1193, helpfully had two daughters named Agnes de Ferrers.

The first Agnes de Ferrers, by Sir William's first wife Sybil Marshal, was born about 1222 and married William de Vescy (b. bef. 16 May 1205).

The second Agnes de Ferrers, by Sir William's second wife Margaret de Quincy, was born about 1252 and married Sir Robert de Muscegros (b. abt. 1252).

But that's not all!

Sir William also had two daughters named Joan de Ferrers.

Again (you're starting to get the idea by now), the first Joan de Ferrers, by Sir William's first wife Sybil Marshal, was born about 1233 and married, first Sir John de Mohun (b. abt. 1227, d. bef. 1254), and second, Sir Robert de Aguillon (b. 15 Feb 1235/36).

The second Joan de Ferrers, by Sir William's second wife Margaret de Quincy, was born in 1245 and married Thomas de Berkeley, 1st Baron Berkeley (b. 1245).

This second pair of Joans is made even more hilarious by the existence of yet a third Joan de Ferrers, contemporary to the other two, born abt. 1256 to a completely different William de Ferrers, the one born c. 1225, of Bere Ferrers, Tavistock, Devon.

I'm sure they all got together regularly to laugh about how aggravating this would be to people seven hundred years in the future.

-----

As a final piece of genealogical curiosa, Eleanor de Ferrers, youngest daughter of William de Ferrers by his first wife, married Roger de Quincy, father of William de Ferrers' second wife Roger de Quincy, thus rendering Eleanor de Ferrers and Margaret de Quincy one another's stepmothers.

William married Margaret de Quincy before 1239. Margaret (daughter of Roger de Quincy and Helen of Galloway) was born before 1223; died before 12 Mar 1281. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1294

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: of Kimbolton, Essex, England

Notes:

"He supported Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, in his failed rebellion against the King, was one of the chief leaders of the rebel party at the battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264, and was taken prisoner at the battle of Evesham (2nd Barons' War), 4 Aug 1265. Sent to Beeston Castle, he died there in captivity." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz, citation details below.]

"Humphrey de Bohun, s. and h., had a grant in 1254 as eldest s. of Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex, of 80 marks a year at the Exchequer till the King could provide for him in lands of that yearly value. In 1257 he was among those who assisted his father to keep the marches between Montgomery and the land of the Earl of Gloucester, and in 1263 was ordered to join his father at Hereford to defend the lands and fortify the castles on the marches against Llywellyn. He joined the Barons against the King, and on 23 July 1264.had the custody of the Castle of Winchester, which he was ordered to surrender 3 June 1265. He had also (15 Sep. 1264) the Island and Castle of Lundy, and (17 Nov. 1264) the manor of Havering, Essex. He fought at the Battle of Evesham, 4. Aug. 1265, where he was taken prisoner." {Complete Peerage 6:462]

Humphrey married Eleanor de Briouze. Eleanor (daughter of William de Briouze and Eve Marshal) died before 25 Jun 1252; was buried in Llanthony Priory, outside Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1264